The Practice Gap

#36 Why Is Change So Hard? Understanding Hidden Barriers with Inger Beate Botheim

• Elisabeth Aas-Jakobsen, DC, MSc • Season 3 • Episode 36

Share episode

Send us a text

Why is change so hard, even when we know it could improve our lives? In this episode of The Practice Gap, I sit down with leadership and executive coach Inge-Beate Botheim to explore a fascinating framework called "immunity to change." Developed by Harvard psychologists Robert Kegan and Lisa Lahey, this method helps uncover the hidden commitments and fears that keep us stuck, even when we’re motivated to make a change.

We discuss why willpower alone isn’t enough to create lasting transformation and how anxiety often holds us back more than the change itself. Inge-Beate shares a personal story about using the "immunity map" in her own life to overcome hidden fears and find a healthier work-life balance.

If you’ve ever struggled with perfectionism, procrastination, or fear of failure, this episode will resonate deeply. Together, we walk through practical steps to identify the internal roadblocks that stop us from achieving what we truly want—whether it’s personal growth, professional goals, or simply finishing long-overdue projects. By the end of the episode, you’ll learn how to use the "immunity map" to shift your mindset and start moving forward.

Tune in to learn how to stop spinning your wheels and start making real progress—whether it’s in your personal life or your practice.

Resources:

Thank you for listening! If you like what you hear, please share it with someone that you think might find value in this episode. If you enjoy this podcast, please take a moment to rate us on Apple Podcasts or where you listen to us. Your feedback helps us improve and reach more listeners. Thank you!

Kind regards,
Elisabeth Aas-Jakobsen, DC, MSc

follow on instagram
or visit homepage

Elisabeth:

Hi and welcome to the Practice Gap, the podcast for closing the gap between the practice you have and the one that you want. I'm Elisabeth, a chiropractor, a business owner, coach and entrepreneur, on a mission to help you move from frustration and overwhelm to clarity, focus and joy in practice. 3, 2, 1, go Hi and welcome to this third season of the Practice Gap. I'm super happy to be back for this next season and we are going to start out talking about change. For this episode, I've invited back Inge-Beate Botheim to the studio. Could you refresh the audience a little bit? Who are you?

Inger Beate:

Oh, my god, yeah, I can, and thank you for inviting me back. I really had such a fun time with you the last two episodes, so let's hope this one also brings us fun and joy. I'm a woman living in Oslo. I work full-time as a leadership and executive coach, and change is kind of in the middle of everything I do. Also in my personal life. I have three teenagers in my house and of course that also causes a lot of changes for us as parents and for us as a family. So the topic for today, I think, is very interesting in many, many ways.

Elisabeth:

We are going to talk about a concept that's called immunity to change. It addresses why it's so difficult for so many people to change and also something to do about it. If you could start by telling the audience a little bit what is immunity to change and how does it differ from other forms of resistance?

Inger Beate:

to change. This framework immunity to change is developed by two psychologists at Harvard called Robert Keegan and Lisa Leahy, and they have been studying adult development for many, many years, many decades, and they, they say actually that what we're saying that change is so hard they say that's not even half the truth. They say it's even harder, it's even harder. But what they say is that it's not that we fear the change, because many people, people say change is so uncomfortable, but it is because we don't know what to do with the anxiety that arises when change is ahead. And they often use the example that, let's say, you win the lottery tomorrow or something very, very fun happens to you, something that's great, that's change, and you wouldn't think it's hard, that's great, that's change, and you wouldn't think it's hard. So it's more that we get anxious and don't know what to do when we face changes that we perceive as dangerous.

Elisabeth:

Okay. So it's not the change itself, it's the danger I perceive with the change. So if I win a million, dollars. It's going to be super, super easy to change. Probably. But if I want to change career, it's going to be crazy difficult.

Inger Beate:

Yes, so they developed this framework because what they say and I find that to be very true in my work as a coach often the only change model we have or have learned is that it all comes down to willpower If I just want it enough, I can do anything Right, and then, on the other hand, if you're not able to do the change, it must be that you don't really want it enough. Yeah, and I think that we talked about shame in one of the previous episodes, and I think also this when we're not able to implement the changes that we really want and that we know will give changes that we really want and that we know will give us something we really long for and aspire for, that often leaves us shameful, because if I don't want it enough like having a healthy body to exercise more, or whatever my new year's resolutions might be if I don't want it enough, I must be lazy or stupid or something.

Elisabeth:

Because you don't have enough willpower to change. Right, yeah.

Inger Beate:

And I think the research of Keegan and Lahey really really shows that that change model is not sufficient for us to really transform and evolve as human beings and adopt the changes that we long for.

Elisabeth:

So what do they bring?

Inger Beate:

to the table. So what they bring to the table is that they created something they call the immunity map. So it's a framework and a model for you to go through, step by step, to be able to see what's really holding you back. So you could say that your goals, the change you want for yourself or maybe for your team, if you're a leader that's the gas. Right, you really want that, that's the foot on the gas and you really want to go forward and implement this change. You also have a lot of hidden and competing commitments, strategies to self-protect from what you perceived maybe before, from your experience, to be dangerous. They're often more hidden for our conscious brain. That's the brake and if you everybody who's driven a car if you have one foot on the brake and one foot on the gas, you will stand still, you will feel stuck.

Elisabeth:

So how can I use it? If I have a team, how can I use it?

Inger Beate:

I think this model what I really love about it. It is applicable both for yourself at the workplace or private. It's also applicable for teams and you can use it, like every individual in the team can use it for whatever they struggle with, and you can have like a joint conversation about what everybody's contributing to the team and not. Or you can have like a goal for the team, something a team want to achieve, and you might have been unsuccessful so far.

Elisabeth:

Maybe you tried many you tried to try it and then you it's the. It's only little changes. Oh, I tried that a million times. It never works. Anyway, let's not just do something else, right? Yeah, well, how can you start to identify your own immunity to change?

Inger Beate:

that's what we're gonna do, using you an example but you should know that now that when you invite me, I will coach you for all your audience to listen. So what I thought would be fun is that they have created this immunity map, and that's actually a sheet of paper with four columns, and we have provided that for our listeners. So if they want to do the same that I'm going to drag you through today, they can pause the episode and they could go and find this immunity map and download it. And where will they find it?

Elisabeth:

They will find it in the notes, also on the webpage to the podcast, the Practice Gap or, for the Norwegians out there, praxislivno. But before I start we start, Could you start by giving me and the audience an example when you have used immunity. Change yourself in your own life with your own struggles?

Inger Beate:

yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, I've used it many times for myself and it's every time I use it. I get kind of struck by how much we don't know about ourselves, because I I'm a coach, I do personal work for others and for myself, like all the times for many years. And still, when I use this model, I get more data of what I'm doing and what I'm not doing and what's holding me back.

Inger Beate:

And I think one time I used it for like a year ago, I worked in a very big project and I worked way too much and I found myself struggling with telling the client that I worked for that I needed to cut back because I saw I worked like in evenings and on Fridays.

Inger Beate:

I often used to have Fridays off. I worked in the weekend, and that's not something that I want. I want balance, work-life balance. I want to spend time with my kids, I want to be present with my kids. And then I used this model and I will not go through all the process in my case but what I found is that the reason that I couldn't tell the client that it was too much was because I had a hidden commitment that was competing with this work-life balance, that I should be able to do everything they put on me. I should be self-sufficient. I was a person that always needed to say yes, not to say no, so my hidden commitment was that if I and I was so worried, if I said this is too much for me, the reply from the client would be then we have to let you go right, yeah.

Inger Beate:

And the funny thing is because I worked with myself and with this immunity change for many, many weeks and when I finally saw this hidden commitment that it was living in me, that I was committed to do everything they put on me instead of having world life balance, I thought I need to test this assumption out, assumption out Will they let me go if I tell them that this is too much? And I was at a meeting with this client and just in the break I just all of a sudden just said you know, last few months have been very heavy work-wise. It's too much for me. I have to cut back and not work that much. And then the client just said, okay, great. And then he just went on eating his lunch and I was like I think that's a perfect example of the story that I was telling myself, making up in my mind who I needed to be in order to provide value to this client. But that was just not true.

Elisabeth:

Good example. Good example.

Inger Beate:

So now over to you. That's my favorite part of these episodes, all right, so now over to you. That's my favorite part of these episodes, all right, so I will ask you.

Elisabeth:

Well, I was challenged by Ingebiota in the beginning of the show, just before we started to find a problem, but you were quite specific about what kind of problem you wanted me to find, not the exact, but what type. Could you explain to the audience a little bit before, because that might be?

Inger Beate:

helpful. I think that's. Thank you for reminding me of doing that. I think that's really important because there's many changes we face in our lives and often some of the changes are more like technical and I use that term just to describe that there is a change. You know how to do it, many other people might have been doing it and maybe you even like.

Elisabeth:

Would that be like learning how to use the podcast technical?

Inger Beate:

stuff. Great example so it might, yeah, it might be hard for you to learn it if you're not that technically gifted, but it's. It's more like it's doable.

Elisabeth:

You don't have to go like a big personal change in order to learn you actually just have to figure out who you who's going to teach you to put in time on it's?

Inger Beate:

just with a manual yeah, with a manual right, yeah, so that you call technical issues, but we, we have other challenges. It might be instead, if we go along with the metaphor of the podcast equipment, not the technical, like recording and everything and putting it online, but why it's hard for some guests to show up in your podcast, right, why do they postpone? Why don't they come? What are their worries? You, you know in behind there.

Elisabeth:

So so everyone, the people I ask, is like, yeah, I would love to be on your show, and it's like, oh, it's never a good time, let's do it. Yeah, let's do it in a couple of months. I would love to do and I can't wait. I'm super excited, but let's just not do it now.

Inger Beate:

Yeah, and I think what we are looking for here is to find challenges you have and changes you want to make. That might be something that you've been thinking about for a while. Maybe you tried something, maybe using this willpower method, and maybe you've been like to the gym for a couple of weeks in January, but not like for the whole year. So it's changes that you can't just read a manual how you have to do, how you should do it.

Inger Beate:

You feel stuck. You have no idea why you can't implement or do this change for yourself. That's the changes we are looking for. So on that note, and with my challenge for you to try to find what we call this more adaptive personal development changes. All right, what did you find?

Elisabeth:

Okay, I found something that I've been working with for a really long time and I just been. I have had a little pause with kind of everything extraordinary, and I started again a couple of days ago, and so the the thing is I made this online onboarding system for new therapists all really what you need the first year to get on moving with your practice, all the like. How to make it easy and simple.

Elisabeth:

From all the experience I have with all the different people I worked with for the last 30 years and I have so much material and every time I open, like the documents I've been working that 5 000 documents and all that I'm like, oh, I already, I've already did that, yeah, I did that and I did that. And then it's just like what, what's holding me back, just to put it out in the world? I mean, just finish the darn thing, move on. So what's I mean? Of course you can think like and then so, that's why I can't do it. And then it's like oh, it's perfectionism, it's like it's not good enough. There's a million reasons why I can't do it.

Inger Beate:

And we will use this map to see if we can get more data on this. But if what? What's your goal? What would you like to be better at or do more or less of? Or what's the goal, not the outcome? No, I think.

Elisabeth:

I think the goal is to, like many of my colleagues and my friends, I mean we have this. If it's not 100, it's not good enough, which is like it's really working on that 80 is actually good enough. It's not like just something. I would tell that I mean, if you work with me, I would say, oh, this is more than good enough, but then the standards towards me are different. Yeah, because I know I can do better. Yeah, so's, I think that's probably I would be better of. Just it's good enough.

Inger Beate:

Yeah, it's good enough. Some of what you say also fits in the map for like why you're doing all this stuff. But if we stay with your goal for a little bit more, if you should phrase it not like an outcome, so not like putting this out and having this great onboarding system, good enough for whatever out there, what would be your goal? What do you want to achieve?

Elisabeth:

I want to achieve that, when I sit down and work with something and then actually kind of finished, to stop looking for all the little things that is hindering me in actually being done, like, oh, now everything is done, but but I don't really know how this technical thing, I should find a better payment system or I should find a better way to communicate with my, the people who buys this program. It's like I find up a million things that is keeping. It's all the little things I don't know exactly how to do. That keeps me. Then I don't have to, then I can wait, I can postpone it.

Inger Beate:

Yeah, so that's some of the behavior.

Elisabeth:

Gosh now I just realized I have a lot of other things in the same category.

Inger Beate:

Oh, we all do, all do so, I hear two things I hear that you really want to be with happy what's good enough to get moving. So there's something there that you really want to experience being what you said it's good enough, I'm done and I can move on. So it's something like finishing things when they're done and not like wasting all the time for the last few finishing projects.

Elisabeth:

So there's room and time to go on, to like. Not time because there's more than enough time, it's more that mental capacity that I can move on. I actually closing something so I can work, keep going and since I know closing something so I can work, keep going.

Inger Beate:

Yeah, so, and I, and since I know you a bit, I know you have you have many things you want to do and I think this is really important, like playing a bit with the words in this column. One, if your listeners have listened, downloaded this map pause the podcast now and download this little PDF.

Inger Beate:

Yeah, we really recommend that. And in column one, it's important to play with the words so you come closer to what you really really want, and it should be important to you, like, if you have like a five-star scale, it should be at least a four or five, something that would really really really mean a lot to you and it should also implicate you and not everybody else I would like to become better at finishing my project and say it's more than good enough.

Elisabeth:

Okay, should I write this down?

Inger Beate:

yeah, please write it down, yeah all right, I think also just a quick comment in the example you used. I think after this podcast you could probably also write down a goal, because I heard something around you really want the new practitioners at your clinic to have a great first year.

Elisabeth:

That's why you made it. I want my practitioners, I want all practitioners.

Inger Beate:

Yeah, and that's also something, because that's why you would do all this work and these 5,000 pages and whatever you have like.

Elisabeth:

Start up. Yeah, that's definitely going. It's not about me finishing, it's about them having tools that I didn't have, right.

Inger Beate:

Yeah and I think that's also because that's why it's so important to not get distracted in what you're doing or not, but just like spending a bit of time to just feel into if I did this, this is what would happen, and really feel maybe also like in your gut that, yeah, if I was to accomplish this, maybe for you both these things what would that leave me with? How would life be different? And so I'm asking you, when you look at your goals here, what would be different for you if you were able to implement these changes?

Elisabeth:

If I would be able to implement this, I really think it would change how everyone will practice and it would make everybody's peace. I mean, I really have a burning love for people or practitioners.

Elisabeth:

Who wants to work with somebody, something they love, like helping people to live better lives and to succeed fast, because there's so many people out there who need good hands or help or help for their aches and pains, and there's, like it's, so many people who don't get help and there's so many amazing practitioners who are unable to help help them because they don't know the all the other stuff that you know. It's not like they're they're really good from school. They know everything, they have all the techniques, they have all the stuff, they have the diagnosis. They just don't have the system to make it a nice life past. So what?

Inger Beate:

I hear is that this is super important for you. Yeah, so would you rate it like a four or five, five for sure, for sure, yeah, so it's really important. And then also back to the willpower thing we talked about. This is not about willpower, but it is really important that this goal is something that would change something for you, because, of course, you will be more internally motivated to do something about it, and that's what we're going to do now. So we're going to move on to the second column in this, uh, in this map, and the thing that's important now is that we're going to try to find all your behavior, or the things you do or you don't do, in order to achieve this goal. And I know the laughter from anxiety and that this is going to be. It might be painful, but what's important now is we're going to stick with the behaviors behaviors, okay, and behavior as in also what you don't do, because that's also behavior we are not going to have conversations about why you are doing this, we are just collecting?

Inger Beate:

we are collecting data. What are you doing or doing instead of achieving this goal?

Elisabeth:

come on well, um Well, I do. I spend hours researching the best online platform. I have done them all. I know how to use all of them.

Inger Beate:

Extensive research, a never-ending research.

Elisabeth:

And also I get hung up when I get technical issues, like this morning. I spent an hour and a half trying to get my camera to record my screen. If I didn't have a meeting with you, I would still be sitting in my computer trying to resolve, instead of calling someone who can pay to help me fix this, because this is insane great, what else what else? Uh, not, I don't trust. I switch my focus constantly to see how can I make it even better yeah, so constantly searching for I have a perfect outline.

Elisabeth:

It's more than good enough. I keep making new outlines.

Inger Beate:

Yeah, so you're repeating your work and trying to make it even better? Yeah, to make it better.

Elisabeth:

And that's making that. I'm not moving on, I'm just making, I'm just circling and I just leave the computer like, oh, now.

Inger Beate:

I'm definitely not motivated. What else are you doing, or maybe not doing, in order to serve your change?

Elisabeth:

I am procrastinating because when I don't get to do this, then I'm like okay, I'm going to do just something else instead. I can finish this instead.

Inger Beate:

So not providing or using time to work for your goal, but just doing nothing or doing something else. This is really great and what's important here in column two, in addition to like listing the things you do or don't do, it's like honesty. Is your friend here? Right? You're getting nowhere if we're not totally honest honest with ourselves. So really to try to find all the things you do and not do that are linked to you feeling stuck or not moving forward is really important and also I try to do too many things, to too too extensive instead of just keep it simple.

Elisabeth:

Yeah, because that's what it's what I want to do it keep. I start with the intention keep this simple and I end up not doing it right, yeah, yeah.

Inger Beate:

So what you outline here is the gap and that's also why they call this immunity to change a immunity gap process right, because you are now identifying the gap between what you really long for, what your goals like. You want to be able to move on, do things, get things completed, move on a free time to do more of all the important stuff you want to do and also to help the practitioner have really good business, and you're identifying a gap that your behavior behavior doesn't support what you're changing and that's exactly where you want to be. What I would like you to take a second to reflect on when you see the list of these behaviors, the things you do or you don't do.

Elisabeth:

Just give me one second, so I can write it down yeah please do.

Inger Beate:

When you look at this list, how do you feel?

Elisabeth:

Really, I thought I was better than that. Yeah, this is what I work with and other things every day. Yeah, and I can't even do it myself.

Inger Beate:

No, it's terrible, yeah and thank you for being so honest, because that's often how we feel and this feeling, when we have the notion of this in our, our everyday life. We would either just try to ignore it, not go there, not look at it, or try to fix it super fast and I think that's the challenge in this process.

Inger Beate:

After, like, listing up all these things that you do and don't, do you want to run away and try to fix and do something else. The process is inviting you to just stay with the process, trust the process. We often say as coaches, so we will not yet go there to what you can do differently, we will.

Elisabeth:

That's. That's also where everyone is. Why can't you just do?

Inger Beate:

this, yeah, and it's often down to willpower. Again, now that you see this and you know that this works, again what you really want, can't you just change it? So there's an invitation now to just stay with it. We have listed the behavior and we will move on to the third phase and the third column in this process, and now we are going to see what kind of commitments are you holding, often hidden for you in your conscious mind. What kind of commitments, what things are do you believe to be true about you that makes the behavior you just listed to make perfect sense, because you do this for a reason. There's something you've been doing for many years that keeps, keeps you in this space, and that's where we're going now and to help you to get there. What kind of fears or worries are coming up for you if you are thinking I won't do those behaviors anymore. I will just be really, really working on my goals and succeeding in implementing these changes, what that I want? What kind of fears would come up for you there?

Elisabeth:

well, the first one is pretty easy it's a failure, everybody hates it, it's it, or nobody even is interested like it. Just, I mean, I spent all this time and it's just like uh, you were completely wrong, it was a failure. Why did you do it? Yeah, and also, gosh, I wasted all these things on something I knew and it was just completely worthless. I thought I knew something and I didn't.

Inger Beate:

Yeah, that was fast, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I can hear, since you do it so fast, and I can hear it in your voice, that this is familiar territory for you so if we should phrase this worry, if we should phrase this as a commitment, what does that mean? That you are committed to?

Elisabeth:

I am committed. I'm committed to trust that the things I think are hard and I experience through all these years of working with other therapists and also working with myself is super valuable to share. Some people may already know this, do this, and a lot of people don't, because they don't know it yet.

Inger Beate:

I will just pause you there because it might be me asking not the correct answer here, because what you're saying now really builds on what you really want to work on.

Inger Beate:

And I will help you, because this is kind of a trick and it's actually very good that you did it, because it'd be easier for the listeners to understand what we're looking for. So what? I, if I can, just from what you're saying, as warriors, I will just try and you can see if the word lands. I think you are committed to be seen as super smart, super experienced.

Inger Beate:

And that's hidden, because if you are committed to be seen as a super smart, failure would be a danger, right? Yeah, so that's what we are looking for, not the super fantastic goals for column one but the more hidden, maybe not so noble or more shameful commitments.

Elisabeth:

So it's it's more the kind of imposter syndrome that would be one very common hidden commitment. I don't want to be a failure yeah, because then it's like you are completely naked and see that you really don't know anything. Yeah, yeah, you should know better.

Inger Beate:

Right. So would that be? What kind of words would you use if you should say it for yourself? So I'm committed to be.

Elisabeth:

I am too mitted to hold myself to super high standards, because I know that I'm smart enough and I should know better, and I'm this hard-working person who should do things well or else you are wasting wasting your gifts and wasting your life away and I guess I'm committed not to wasting my life away yeah, that's great.

Inger Beate:

And now you can start to see and this is also why they call it a map now you can see why it makes perfect sense that you would postpone things, you would use endless hours and times and months and years on making things perfect. Because you have a commitment to be seen as super smart and super experienced and your high standards. You have to meet them in order to put something out there. Then it kind of makes perfect sense because when you're putting things out there, you lose control, right, you can't be sure how things lands. You know you can't be sure that you meet what people need all the time. So it's kind of this self-protecting immune system and that's what the immune system do. That's what your body do with your immune system. It's keeping you safe from what's perceived as a danger, and that's exactly the same we do psychologically Things that you have learned is a risk or could be dangerous for you.

Elisabeth:

You keep away from it and I think I just had a little uh aha moment here. I think this the the big difference between this thing and all the other things I do and jump in this. This is different because this is something I have put together myself. It's not about knowledge than you know, like starting a clinic or start administration. So this is much more personal in a way, because this is what I think it's not. It's not it's new stuff, it's not the thing that I can just check out in the book. It's like, if you have three children, it's's like okay, I do this and this. If you're a good chiropractor, you do this and this. This is all the stuff that hasn't been collected in the way I collect it.

Inger Beate:

Maybe that makes sense. Does that make sense? It makes perfect sense, and what I hear is that this is very personal for you.

Elisabeth:

For this is you. And it makes perfect sense that this is more important for you and also evokes more anxiety. Yeah, it's more on the line. It's because you really, you really make it. It's like oh, this is it. Yes, it's not, you're not better than that, no right.

Inger Beate:

So of course, it creates all this very worrying fear, and that's also because our brain, together with the immune system, one of the biggest job is to keep you alive, also like socially and psychologically. So we would make up and predict and have stories around what could go wrong, and that could be so intense that it really keeps us stuck, even though we don't know about it consciously. And I think that what I love about this, this method, is that, even not going down too much and talking about how you feel, it's just like a step-by-step process that shows you where is your break and I can also do this by myself.

Inger Beate:

I don't need no, of course this is just filling out.

Elisabeth:

If I've done it, learn how to do it once I can do this with all my little problems you.

Inger Beate:

You can do it, it's a method you can use, and then I would say it could be really hard to do it on your own for your first for the first time, but I'm super excited.

Elisabeth:

What about the next?

Inger Beate:

yeah, I can see now you're actually jumping and and I'm going to invite you to, for a few more minutes, to not go into the fixing mode. I'm sorry. I know you're very eager to fix it. We're going to do the last column. That's called the big assumption and that's an invitation to see what does this mean? This you just described in column three, your commitment to being super smart and delivers stuff with super high standards and everything. What does this say about what you think about yourself? And it could be a good tip if somebody else told you this, just to create some distance for you. If somebody else said this, what would you think they thought about themselves?

Elisabeth:

One more time, so I am sure I make it.

Inger Beate:

So what do you have to really believe? What's your big assumptions about you in order to have these thoughts that you have in column three?

Elisabeth:

well, I think it's obvious that I don't think I'm good enough right, yeah, yeah I mean.

Inger Beate:

So that's the biggest chance. And if you're not good enough, what's your fear? If people discover that you're not good enough or you do something you fail, what are you really really afraid would happen?

Elisabeth:

Well, if you're not good enough Technical, issues now.

Inger Beate:

We have to stop recording. We have some recording issues.

Elisabeth:

We have stuff for the commercials. Well, I mean, if you're not good enough, what are you worthy of? Yeah right.

Inger Beate:

What's your worth, yeah, and if you're not worthy, what could happen?

Elisabeth:

oh, then everything could just your whole the ground could fall down and then you could. How, how could that? What would that, maybe? How would that destroy your self-confidence and self feelings?

Inger Beate:

of self-worth, and there's something that comes up for me that when you talk and I have the pleasure also looking at your expression and you're looking out of the window, yeah, and it sounds kind of lonely, yeah yeah, it's, it's definitely it's a great day here in oslo, so it's.

Elisabeth:

Yeah, it's a great kind of lonely, dark place. Yeah, super boring, yeah, sad yeah it's very sad.

Inger Beate:

Yeah, yeah, and you don't do sad we don't do that's not something you want.

Inger Beate:

I think this is thank you for being so honest, and I think this the important of column four is like try to see, what does that really tell me about how I look at myself? Because the stories we tell ourselves also creates our world. So it would be now that you're telling me what you found in column four is like well, if you're really afraid and worried that you're going to end up in like shadowland and gray and all by yourself lonely, it kind of makes perfect sense that you have commitments and you drive yourself to not doing the things that really could be dangerous or risky, right Like putting your personal work out there in the fear of being rejected. It makes perfect sense.

Elisabeth:

It makes perfect sense there, in the fear of being rejected, it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. And then then my educated brains is like how the heck would this really make? And it's like, even though that's fails, it's not going to make me more lonely. It made me a little bit wounded myself, feeling, but I don't think my friends or family or colleague would leave me. They wouldn't even know.

Inger Beate:

No, no, they wouldn't, even know, oh yeah, she did something again. I don't know she does all these things so it really wouldn't matter.

Inger Beate:

No, and I think that's it's what's so cool with this process, because now we're moving to what's outside of this map. It's trying for you to make, test out these assumptions. Is this really true, that I, if I don't do this, and that I will happen? Yeah, and what's so cool is what you just did now, because you're reflecting back and you see you already have tested this. Your rational brain knows that this isn't always true. Of course, we have the immune system, so something for us is super dangerous, and it's not like you should never be afraid of anything new. It's more for you to collect data so you would be able to do the things you really want to do with and for your life.

Inger Beate:

And not being stuck and you have the great testers from your past, because you say you have done many things, that you know that your friends haven't left you. If I ask you, like going forward, like having this immunity map now more in the clear, out of the gray dark area, more you see it more clearly, what would be an okay test for you, like for the next next month, something you can do to even build on this new assumption that I'm worthy, even though not everything is perfect?

Elisabeth:

I don't know. Could you give me an example? So?

Inger Beate:

so this would be not in, not in the fixing mode, but in like testing, like well, I have this work, it's almost done. I think it's good enough, I will put it out there and then I will see how that lands with people and I don't know what project you would finish well, I mean I can just just finish the stuff I have. I mean it's there, it's, everything is there yeah, are you now talking for the onboarding, for the new practitioner stuff, or it's something else that comes to mind?

Elisabeth:

no, I mean that's just one of them, but then I mean there are more things here so the things here is and now you have already mentioned that you, you have experienced and yeah, so there's, there's. Maybe I make a list of the things that I need to move forward on.

Inger Beate:

So, yeah, yeah, I move it on with my life yeah, and the thing here is, this is the like, the implementation of the change, because you have already experienced that you do other stuff and just being stuck, so you like when you, when you just saw your map, you could easily see that this isn't completely true.

Elisabeth:

I've already and also yeah and also. I guess it's something about letting go. I guess that's the thing. It's hard to let go. Let's just let go, yeah let's go what? I think maybe let go. I mean, that could be a lot of things Like it's hard to let go. Yeah, it could be it's lack. You are afraid if I let go there will be something missing.

Inger Beate:

Sure, and I think that also, like it's in the hidden commitments Because, like you say, you could already see there were many things that are at stake here and, of course, if you work through this process many times, you will see more things.

Elisabeth:

So when I can do this by myself, afterwards I can do something and then I will find probably a lot of things about letting go.

Inger Beate:

Probably that's normal, but what I would like to say that you might also for the listeners. You might experience that you go through this and you all of a sudden see something you've never seen. Like to say that you might also for the listeners. You might experience that you go through this and you all of a sudden see something you've never seen before. Right, you get like because that I've experienced it also for myself, when people have worked with them, when they go through this and they see I had no, no idea that it was this big assumption that really drove me to do things or not do things in column two. That's competing with my goal and what I would invite is to still not go in testing and fixing notice, okay, the important stuff here is to try to test stuff.

Elisabeth:

To test if what you hold as assumptions, if I let go of something, or like if I, I guess the thing that stuck with me it's loneliness, the fear of being alone.

Inger Beate:

Right To have a test to see if I do this, will I?

Elisabeth:

experience.

Inger Beate:

Will everyone leave me?

Elisabeth:

if I do this Right.

Inger Beate:

And what we hold here is. It might be true in some cases. It's not like you've done this and it's completely stupid everything you've done to protect yourself. It might be something you needed to do growing up to self-protect yourself, to protect self-protect you. It might still be something that is important to take into consideration when you're going forward. So it's not like you should just throw out everything you found in this map and, being a completely different human being, the thing here is to get data.

Elisabeth:

So, if I'm aware of it, it's easier to work with.

Inger Beate:

Yeah, and if you're aware and you get data, I do this. Did I get pushback from my friends? Didn't they want to come to the yearly New Year's Eve celebration or whatever? You're trying to test to get more data? Because if you get more data and you, over time, understand that this assumption, this hidden commitment that I hold for myself, they are not completely true. You can create new stories that you can be, I can be super smart and experienced and blah, blah, blah, blah blah and still be okay with things being good enough.

Elisabeth:

right, both can be true at the same time so if we try to wrap up a little bit, yes, what advice would you give our listeners about where to start when they see they have changes they want to do and they can't do that?

Inger Beate:

this is a great question and you know well, as a coach, when I get asked to give advice that's.

Elisabeth:

We need to have always some advice.

Inger Beate:

Yeah, I know and and I don't like to give advice, well, but but I will do it, since I, since I accepted this invitation to be on your podcast. I think you should really try for yourself. I think you should really download this map. I've put in some instructions on how you should fill out every column in this map so it should be easier for the listeners to do this for themselves.

Inger Beate:

And, of course, I also advise people who are feeling really stuck and are thinking about changes they really want to do for themselves that have been able to do, to get a coach or talk to somebody who can really provide them with some guidance through this process. To really spend time at it in the first column, like we did, to really find the goal, not the outcome, but to really really find an important goal as something that will make a difference for you. And, I think, to spend time there because as soon as that lands and you can feel in your stomach that this is super important, I think you are more motivated to bring your friend honesty into the process, to really make it work. And then try to test, test your assumptions and get more data. What's true?

Elisabeth:

or not. So then I would also give an advice on that note. We have, of course, a lot of smart colleagues out there who are working with other really great people who work not as coaches, but I mean that's basically when we work with patients, it's kind of we're kind of hidden coaches, sure, and maybe listen to this episode together or read more, and then try to do this in the same room and work with it and talk about it and maybe help each other through the first process.

Inger Beate:

I think that's a great advice and I think also in the notes for this podcast episode we will name the researchers behind this method and then, you can read the book. You can read the book and there's podcasts out there in addition to this one, so if you Google it you will find a lot of stuff, if you're curious.

Elisabeth:

And use the chat key. That's like what is immune to change and how can you use it?

Inger Beate:

yeah, or reach out to you or to me if they're curious, curious to know more yeah, perfect.

Elisabeth:

Thank you so much, ibe. It was lovely if I should summarize it. It's a lot to summarize, but I think these tools may make it easier to see the behavior, why it's so hard to change, and that change is not to do always with willpower. It's about some beliefs, hidden beliefs and hidden commitments that we need to bring out in the open so we can move forward and live better, more satisfied lives.

Inger Beate:

That's beautiful, thank you.